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10 Questions with ... Greg Dunkin
August 27, 2007
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NAME:Greg DunkinTITLE:ConsultantCOMPANY:Vallie Richards Consulting
1. What have you been up to since leaving Journal in Tucson? You were at Coleman right?
Yes. I was the Vice President at Coleman, a research company based in Research Triangle Park in North Carolina. That was an amazing period of time. It reaffirmed many of my long held beliefs that stations should be programmed brands, not just radio stations that play music and try to garner the largest possible audience. Having the opportunity to simultaneously be involved in the diagnosis of programming and marketing issues for several stations and formats in a variety of competitive situations, and then developing results based solutions for every client is something that every programmer, GM, market manager and owner should experience.
2. How did being A VP at Coleman affect or change the way you would program?
It affirmed that listeners do not understand much more than two or three things about even their favorite stations and that programmers must focus their efforts on the development of images that drive listener perceptions. Listenership is a by-product of listener perceptions, even in a PPM world. In other words, if a station has created perceptions for the attributes, music, personalities, promotions etc., that correlate with listener appetite, they will listen.
3. Tell us about Fresh FM. It is doing very well in New York.
First of all, much of the credit belongs to the CBS team in New York. GM Marie Mason, Senior VP of Programming, Greg Strassell, PD Rick Martini and MD Fabi Pimentel have done a phenomenal job. Coleman also deserves a lot of credit. Fresh FM is the next generation of AC. Fresh means new, different and contemporary. For the most part, Hot AC and Soft or Mainstream AC have been out-of-synch with the lifestyle and music appetites of women for years. Fresh fills that void.
4. WLTW is a heritage and legendary radio station. One of the early marketing books written by Trout and Reis used this station as an example of great positioning. What has happened?
Not specifically talking about WLTW, many of these heritage stations think they are in good shape because they have a few contemporary music categories and do some marketing, the perceptions of these stations as being old, tired and yesterday are very much alive when talking about listener perceptions. These AC's are vulnerable to our new, Fresh approach because the format is so well targeted and focused. Old or heritage AC's have a difficult time competing with it.
5. Music aside, how is Fresh different from other ACs?
The positioning, music, personalities, production and the formats interactivity with listeners are all precisely designed to match today's contemporary female. In many ways, Fresh is like a community iPod. By that I mean, each Fresh station will be specifically designed for each and every market. This is not at all like other nationally distributed formats that come prepackaged with a predetermined playlist and production. Not only does each market get to pick the music, they also design the packaging, much like you can customize the dressings and content of your Yahoo home page.
6. There is already some talk about how to defend against a Fresh attack. What do you have to say about that?
You're right, and we're flattered that other broadcasters believe the fresh brand is for real. In fact, many around the country are already talking about battle plans should a Fresh station debut in their market. But the next one could be very different from what you hear in New York. It all depends on market conditions and opportunity.
7. You created the Fresh format. Tell us about that process.
One day I was thinking about the declining performance of Hot AC. So, in my free time, I began to make several lists. First there was the shift in population demographics. In its heyday, Hot AC typically targeted 25-34 year-olds, which comprised a healthy bulk of the population. These listeners were growing older and as a transitory targeted format, Hot AC was no longer reaching them. While many Soft ACs slowly began to embrace some of the music, which had been owned by Hot AC, the model for Soft AC had not evolved to facilitate the hipper lifestyle of this audience. Soft and Mainstream AC's continued to play a lot of older less relevant music styles.
Society had also changed and advances in technology topped that list with cell phones, iPods, personal computers, e-mail, etc. We were communicating and living very differently. But the AC model had not evolved. Thus, the stage was set for a paradigm shift.
Simultaneously, I had inherited a little money from my grandparents. I was so impressed by the way they ran their business and how they were able to leave something for their daughter and grandchildren in the hopes of making their lives a little easier. Having a wife and two daughters, I wanted to hopefully someday do the same for them. Something that would have made my grandparents proud. Instead of buying a new car or investing in an IRA, I decided to invest in Fresh. I hired an artist to design a logo, developed clocks, playlists and features. Then I ran them by friends, including Greg Strassell, Mike Anthony, Jon Coleman, Jack Taddeo, Alan Burns, Guy Zapolean, Bob Dunphy, Rick Cummings and Tom Land.
A month later I joined Coleman. Jon Coleman, who has been a mentor of mine since my days at WNSR (New York), was also a fan of the Fresh idea, but to understandably avoid possible client conflicts, we agreed to table Fresh indefinitely.
Several months later CBS had asked us for assistance with WNEW. When discussing format options, Greg Strassell, said "why don't we investigate this Fresh thing Greg was talking about a couple of years ago?" The "fresh" name was one of many options on the table. At this point, I removed myself from the research process. As it turned out, Fresh was the best option. If it hadn't have been for Greg Strassell, Fresh would not be here today.
8. You are now with Vallie Richards Donovan Consulting. How did that come about?
After Fresh in New York debuted, the company that now controls the federal trademarks for Fresh FM (MRH Marketing) was looking for a company to distribute the concept nationally. The folks at Vallie Richards Donovan were chosen to consult and market this concept because they get strategy, positioning, programming and marketing better than anyone else. They understand the potential of the Fresh brand. I wanted to be a part of that, and fortunately for me they provided me with the opportunity to join them. Stations interested in Fresh can only get it through Vallie Richards Donovan. And the phone is ringing.
9. When you look at the music Fresh plays, it looks like a Hot AC, but you call it "Soft." What's up with that?
The industry has preconceived notions of what is considered to be "Hot" and "Soft" synched with the proper positioning of your own product and the repositioning of competition. "Meredith Brooks "Bitch" (to use a somewhat harsh example) could be Soft, just as Maroon Five and Justin Timberlake could be considered Mainstream by today's contemporary female. It's all relative.
10. Do high-profile personalities play a part of this concept?
Depends. If there is a void for a high profile show in a market, then it might. Again, each station will be tailored to each market. If there's a hole, we think we can find it and exploit it. Again, listeners only recall so many things about each station. There is no way any station can cover every base effectively and enjoy success in every area.
That said, if a station plays a fair amount of contemporary music, but has image for older styles, a new station would be able to exploit that opportunity because they have old and faded baggage to discard before picking up a new set of luggage. This is true even when the incumbent markets a new music image. In that case, they are fighting a somewhat uphill battle. They must first convince listeners that they don't play old music, and then build an image for playing contemporary genres. The decrease in one image does not automatically equate to an equal gain in the other. Existing listener perceptions are difficult to change. So, even if the incumbent reacts to cover a new competitor, they [must] first change perceptions before creating new ones. Whereas a new product is "new," and is more easily and quickly defined.
Also, there are a very few stations that appear to have it all, great music images, high profile personalities and perceptions for great contests. But if a new competitor emerges whose sole purpose is to specialize in only one area and is flawless in its execution and marketing, the incumbent is still in a defensive position.
For example, the Tire Company is known for one thing, tires. What does Sears sell? Well, they sell tires, but they also sell suits, TVs, kids clothing and lingerie. Fresh is a specialist format if you will, whose secondary and tertiary attributes go hand-in-hand with the lifestyle of its listeners. Each layer complements the other without retarding its primary imagery. The same principles that apply to music, apply to personalities, contesting and so on.
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