Jim Ryan

After a good two decades of programming AC powerhouse WLTW/New York, Jim Ryan decided to try his hand at consulting. While going from one end of the country to the other, helping various stations get back on track, CBS Radio approached Ryan to use his talents to help its AC stations -- especially its two Fresh outlets in New York and Chicago -- reach their potential. Here, he explains the challenges he faces in doing that in a PPM environment.

What made you decide to go to CBS Radio?

I just was intrigued by the whole collection of people at CBS Radio. I mean, it's a company run by radio programmers. I really think Greg Strassell and Dan Mason built an incredible team ... a team I wanted to be part of.

I was really happy with my consulting business. I loved the lifestyle and had some truly fantastic clients in three of top-five markets, so I was being kept extremely busy. I first started talking to Greg back in January. In February we went back and forth for a few months. But as this went on and the more people I met at CBS, the more I wanted to be part of the company.

Could you describe the differences in corporate culture between Clear Channel and CBS Radio?

I was with Clear Channel for very long period of time; by the time I left I was as SVP. I have gotten to see how both companies operate, and they do operate very differently.

I really love what I'm doing at CBS. As a VP; I get to work with the stations in AC format for the company. The highest priorities are the Fresh stations in New York and Chicago; The New York station has a well-defined air staff as well as a good amount of success; which we're building on. The Chicago station has a great cume; it's just a matter of engaging the audience a bit more and turning more of that cume into P1 listeners.

Do you feel any extra emotion going up against WLTW, a station you oversaw for so many years?

I'm very proud of what we did at Lite. They continue to do well today; they built on a foundation I helped establish. The people who worked there before me -and with me --helped build a great brand. For 25 years they spent a couple million annually on marketing that brand. That's a great foundation.

Have you come up with a "challenger" strategy to go up against Lite and WLIT with your Fresh stations?

It's a lot more fun to be the challenger than to be the guy on top. When you're on top, everyone expects you to keep it that way. When you're the challenger, you can afford to take some chances. The battle is a lot more fun for me now than it was in my last year at 'LTW. I'm really enjoying it; it's really fun talking to listeners, looking for solutions to grow.

Has the introduction of the PPM impacted the way you program an AC station?

With PPM you have to look at it two ways. One way is in execution; you have to make sure you're getting every minute you can from the people holding meters. However, one similarity that does parallel the diary is the importance of having a brand. People have to know what your brand does. How do people think about your brand when they're not using the radio station? You have to build up brand awareness. That's critical for both the diary and PPM.

I would think that AC stations would be the beneficiary of what others call "dry cleaner listening," where people with meters register whatever is playing at a retail store they're frequenting.

I do think there is some of that. However, they need to be at that dry cleaner for five minutes a quarter-hour to register on the PPM. You get nothing out of it if the cleaners have fast service!

How have you counseled your air talent on changing their shows to reflect PPM monitoring?

You do have to work with the personalities pretty extensively. At certain times, you need them to engage with your audience and touch their emotions. Sometimes when you do that, you'll lose a few meters, but if you look the big picture, it's okay sacrificing a quarter-hour today if by doing that, listeners will think about your radio station more often ... making it more likely that they'll come back sooner and more often.

I may be in a luxurious position of not looking to be #1 next week. Certainly it would be nice to be #1, but I have a big-picture goal to grow the audience of our radio stations over time. I'm trying to make them some of the biggest brands in the market they're in. We do have to make some sacrifices. We have a morning show at Fresh in New York, Jim and Kim, that has the potential to be huge. I meet with them almost every day to come up with new ways to get them in front of listeners and find things they can do to enable them to become a fixture over time.

How has the PPM changed the reality of at-work listening?

We do see people tune in and out of the radio station. We don't know if they're really tuning out to other stations. Sometimes in the office, people will get an important phone call and turn the turn radio off much in the way I have as I am speaking with you right now. If I had a meter on my desk, it would register me tuning out of Fresh 102.7. That's how people really use radio, where in the old diary days, they'd simply draw a line through the day. Now in real life, stations are turned up and down. It's definitely a challenge to optimize TSL.

How do you convince advertisers that the higher cumes monitored by the PPM can compensate for the lower AQH?

We're seeing cumes of many stations double. TSL is certainly is a lot lower, but what it shows is that more and more, radio is such a part of people's lives. You look at Fresh in New York and they're doing four million listeners a week, which is an unbelievable number. You know when they're punching the button and you know when they're hearing station commercial messages.

One thing advertisers need to be aware of is you need frequency when running commercials. Many advertisers are doing that; you punch across the radio and hear a lot of the same spots. You can't get away from that Geico lizard, for crying out loud. But they're using the medium very well.

Is clutter and tune-out more of a factor with the PPM?

We look for all tune-out factors, whether they are commercials or burn-out on songs. It's a market-to-market situation on all those kind of things. Like Train's "Hey Soul Sister" ... one day people will just get tired of it and you have to know when to take it out of power rotation. You have to monitor burn-out and tune-out on all facets of the radio station.

Has the PPM had any impact on how you use research?

Callout is important but more and more we look at everything, including listener groups at the radio station, mScores, Media Monitors ... even calls to the radio station. Heck, I still run around and ask every woman in the demo what their favorite song is and what songs they are tired of. We need to know what's going on with the listeners. Every bit of information is now critical.

The one problem with callout is, while I certainly use it, the info covers what was popular last week. I'm more concerned about what's going to be popular next week. Radio has to be a blend of art and science. If there was a perfect callout formula that could be used and plugged in, CBS or any other company wouldn't need to hire people like me. Guys like me are hired because we have learned the art of programming. We get a good enough feel that we could put Katy Perry in power before we saw the callout. You have to have the ability to go, "Wow, she's a hot artist with a no-brainer song. Let's get ahead of the curve and turn our audience onto popular culture." We should never lose sight of that.

How have the music tastes of AC's P1 listeners changed?

When I came to New York at WLTW in 1996, the oldest song on the station was 25 years old and the median age of the listener was 42. Now here we have me coming to Fresh in 2010 ... and the oldest song we play is 25 years old and the median age is 41. Yet look at our playlist today: We play Katy Perry, Jason Derulo ... Fresh is where AC needs to go.

You're thinking about some of the classic Motown-era songs ... my god; they're 40-plus years old. By in large, people whose favorite song is "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" are now out of the 25-54 demo. AC needs to change and evolve. A 41-year-old woman today is into the big popular artists of the moment, because she sees them on TV and hears them on her daughter's favorite radio stations in the car. AC, as a brand, needs to evolve.

Is NTR as important to an AC as it would be to a younger-targeted station?

It's important that we tie in with all big lifestyle events, be it cooking demos, ways to better take care of your kids in things like planning their college education or tickets to big shows such as Nickelback and Bon Jovi. We gave away Bon Jovi tickets and the phones went crazy. We're always tying in with lifestyle events.

What does the typical AC listener get out of a Fresh website?

The typical AC listener checks out our website in the morning when she gets to work; she checks it again around lunchtime. That sort of thing is typical of primarily work-driven usage. We have to make sure we've got the right content online so she will come back. She certainly won't be spending the length of time on our website like Top 40 listeners spend on their favorite stations' websites at night.

Nights and weekends have always been AC's Achilles heel. What can you do to combat that?

The thing we see at nights is erratic behavior. Fresh in New York was 7th in nights one week and third in nights the next. We see a lot of bouncing around, because there are so few meters in our core demo. If you ask typical 40-year old women what they'd do at night, they'd probably say, "Watch CSI." We have to deal with getting those listeners for shorter periods of time at the expense of what's going on in their lives. Are they in the car... in a store ... picking their kids up? That sort of thing.

As far as weekends go, Saturday is a reasonably big day for us; we have to build more engagement on Saturdays. Much of the usage is in the car, so we have to pick up the tempo and increase turnover on really big hits.

Now that you're back in the radio programming game, has it changed your outlook on your own career future?

Consulting was a great thing and there were weeks as a consultant when I was crazy-busy. I'd be on West Coast doing music tests one day ...and in New York the other. But also as a consultant, I could pretty much get periods, two or three days long, when I had some time to really unwind a bit and relax. I made a commitment to CBS to spend the next three years of my life, working to get big ratings. That's what I'm going to do; I'm really excited about the possibilities for the next three years.

I haven't thought past that point. I made a commitment to this. I can tell you that if I'm having as much fun in two years and nine months as I am having now, they're stuck with me. But who knows? I just don't want to end up like Brett Favre.